(A lot of these details only pertain to Zer0net node SysOps, however a huge part of this announcement is extremely relevant to any perspective new nodes, and none of it is anything in any way sensitive, so I'm posting this for all to read. Speaking of which, slightly nicer formatted version of this @ https://jackphla.sh/zer0net-2024-changes/)

It will be no surprise to many of you to read that I've been tossing around a lot of ideas about how to overhaul or otherwise update Zer0net for a couple of years now. We've had some interesting ideas, like shifting to a highly moderated structure and even focusing on new/different themes. In the end, I feel that Zer0net should stay true to, and in fact embrace, its identity as a network that values free speech even if that means taking the bad along with the good when it comes to open conversation, and staying true to our underground BBS scene aligned roots, and instead of changing the conversation, focus on having more of it. With that in mind, here's what is changing with Zer0net in 2024, which, by the way, marks the network's 25th birthday!

* Paulie420 of 2o fOr beeRS will be joining me as the co-admin of Zer0net. I've greatly always appreciated help from others, and while Zer0net isn't exactly a democracy, more often than not I poll our node operators for feedback on changes and other concerns about the network, and even work with some of them quite closely. While that won't be changing, I believe that having another person, especially one with a different background, different values, and a different personality than me helping officially steer things can only be a good thing for the network's future.

Paulie will be highly involved with recruiting new nodes, reviewing applications, and otherwise working with prospective new members. He already does a lot of work helping and mentoring other SysOps, and generally trying to be involved in the whole BBS scene community, so this is a natural fit for him, and it's especially important given the next change. The "apply@zer0net.org" address we currently have in our documentation is still the best way to apply for the moment, and it will forward to him as well as me now.

* Esc AKA Ryan of Monterey will also be officially joining the network's staff. Of those Zer0net node operators I mentioned above, I've probably leaned most heavily on my friend Esc for many years now. He's also joined me as one of the members of the relaunched Demonic Productions in 2022. Overall, he's been one of the network's most steadfast contributors for quite some time, and I wanted to recognize that. Speaking of both things, he runs Demonic's small, private Discord server, and we have a Zer0net channel if any SysOps or frequent posters would like to join - just ask!

* Zer0net has been opened up, and acceptance criteria has been loosened considerably. Ultimately, most of us are members of echo mail networks in order to be able to participate in more active conversations with a wider variety of people than just what is happening in our local message bases with our local users, even those of us lucky enough to have very active local message areas. Having an "elite" membership when (more times than not) we have very little active conversation, seems a bit self-defeating.

Additionally, we've rejected quite a few boards that haven't met our criteria over the years, but since one of the possible acceptance criteria is a lot of message activity, if those boards are relatively new, or the SysOp themselves is one of the most active posters, as is often the case, they never really get a chance to prove themselves before being rejected. While it has regrettably sometimes been taken this way, our mission here has never been to snub or otherwise discourage new SysOps, so this change should also help to address this issue.

We still want serious SysOps who are going to be around more than a month or two, and we still want nodes who will actually add something to the network rather than membership just being one more thing they can list on their advertisements, however. And uh, yeah, we're still going to be pretty damn judgmental of totally stock boards. Sorry, we can't help ourselves on that one!

In the spirit of the old system, Zer0net will have two classes of member nodes:

1. Elite status nodes are boards that meet our original criteria: great artwork and/or modifications, with an underground feel, notable affiliations and/or staff, a lot of activity in form of posts and/or other contributions, etc. All current and legacy nodes will be grandfathered in as elite status boards. Elite status boards do not need to meet any sort of minimal activity level, and can come and go as they wish, just as today.

2. Normal status nodes are boards that do not necessarily meet the old, more strict criteria but we've decided to accept regardless. They must maintain a minimal level of activity (that is, we want to see new posts originating from the node!) We'll do a quarterly or bi-yearly review of activity and any normal board who has not been active will be put into probationary status. The SysOp will be notified and if that status hasn't changed by the next review, they'll be removed.

* Normal status boards can be promoted to elite status. If they've proven themselves to have been highly active or otherwise grown to meet our original criteria. SysOps can ask for us to review their nodes for this, but more often than not we'll proactively reach out to them if we feel they've earned a change in status.

I'm not exactly expecting the floodgates to open, as it were, but then we have rejected a lot of nodes over the years, and I've told quite a few to hold off on their applications until these changes are finally implemented in the last year or so, so who knows!?

* Echo housekeeping! In with the old and out with the slightly less old?

It's been quite a while since we've done this, so as a quick reminder of the point of this type of thing, like a fine dining restaurant with a small, focused menu, I strongly believe that less is more when it comes to message areas. That is, I'd rather have a small list of echos with broader topics, each with at least *some* activity, than have dozens upon dozens of echos dedicated to more specific topics, the majority of them entirely dead.

1. This one is a long time coming. We'll be removing the 0N-INFO and 0N-NEWS echos which have been around since the very beginning. Both echos have grown to feel redundant to me over the years, as most posts about the network's administration will go into 0N-SYSOP anyway, and anything else more often than not winds up in our general discussion echo, 0N-CHAT.

2. Similarly, we'll be merging 0N-ANARC, 0N-HACKN, and 0N-PHRKN into the all encompassing new echo 0N-HPAVC. On paper, these echos have always been some of my favorites since the network started, but in reality these are seldom used as there simply isn't as much crossover between the retro BBS scene and this stuff as I imagined. That was even true in the late 90s, as multiple BBS related underground disciplines had long been diverging into their own distinct scenes. Even when we do have users who want to go in depth on some of these topics, I'd imagine many of them don't feel that an FTN network is the most secure place to do so. Still, Zer0net will always be aligned with the underground, and that's not changing. At the very least, news related to security events always make for fun discussion.

3. We'll be adding a new echo, 0N-RETRO related to all things retro-computing. This one might ALSO feel redundant, but while BBSing in 2024 is undeniably "retro", what most of us have been doing in the BBS scene is just an extension of what we were doing back in the dial-up days. The huge boom in retro-computing in the last 5+ years feels entirely distinct, with a lot more people, both in the scene and outside of the scene, taking an interest in vintage hardware and software, including jumping into the world of BBSing. A great number of us here are into retro computing and/or gaming to some degree, including myself, Paulie, and Esc, so I'm confident that this can be a place for some good conversations. As with our other echos, the actual intention of this echo will be a bit broader than that, with any conversations about vintage OR retro-targeted hardware, alternative OSes, software, games, emulation, etc. all being appropriate.

4. With the aforementioned low-key rebirth of Demonic Productions back in 2022, we had previously added two new echos, 0N-DPUB and 0N-DPRI. 0N-DPUB is for public discussions and release announcements regarding Demonic Productions releases and related topics, while 0N-DPRI is, as the name might suggest, a private echo for Demonic members only, and because it requires special permissions, is not included in the echolist. Still, I'd love for anyone who hasn't added it to make sure 0N-DPUB has been added to their boards.

* File Fun!

First, for those of you who care way too much about this sort of thing, I will endeavor to start doing a better job updating our nodelist file and infopack more or less in real-time as we add and remove nodes. I've already automated this process somewhat, including publishing them to Zer0net's website (AKA a tiny tab on my blog) for those of you who'd like to automate updates via wget (or whatever.) The biggest component of this, however, is that we'll finally be adding a small number of file echos to the network:

0N-NODEL - This will contain the latest Zer0net nodelist file auto-hatched using the same filename every time, which should make it very easy for individual nodes to automate consuming them.

0N-INFOP - This will contain the latest, most up to date version of the Zer0net infopack, again, using the same filename, always available to reference, distribute, etc. As with the last revision in 2020, this includes a variety of documentation regarding the network, some information and useful files for its setup, and some awesome artwork that you can use to give your system look as cool as it surely is if it's a member of Zer0net.

0N-DMNIC - New Demonic Productions releases will be hatched in this echo as they're released. Speaking of which, we'll have a new batch of releases *very* soon!

Initially, no one will be linked to these new file echos by default, as previously our nodes were not configured with TIC passwords or other configuration needed to support file tossing. While I have made these changes on the hub side I don't want to make any assumptions about your configurations, nor do I want to spam you with .TIC files and junk files you don't want. Please use FileFix via a netmail to 911:1423/0 to add any desired echos when/if you're ready to start receiving file hatches. Initially, your TIC password will be the same as those used for PKTs, AreaFix, or if you had nothing but defaults for those, BinkP.

There's a lot of changes here, and given that some of our legacy nodes are more or less on autopilot, I won't be nuking any of these old echos immediately. Instead, you'll have until August 1st, 2024 to make any of the appropriate changes. A whole month! That said, these new message echos and file echos will be available immediately. Given all of these changes, there is a new major revision of our infopack (including an updated nodelist) coming... now! Yep, it's released as of the posting of this announcement. Go grab it!

TL;DR version for those of you who can't stand to read my overly verbose messages: Expect to see much more Paulie420 around. We have a Discord server! Expect to see a lot more new nodes and hopefully more posts, but this should not impact existing nodes. A new infopack is out! Please remove 0N-INFO, 0N-NEWS, 0N-ANARC, 0N-HACKN, and 0N-PHRKN from your configurations and add 0N-HPCAV and 0N-RETRO (and 0N-DPUB if you haven't already done so.) Oh, and please fix that shit by August! If you'd like to receive file hatches of network nodelists, infopacks, and/or Demonic Productions releases, please configure your system to support TIC processing, add the new file echos 0N-NODEL, 0N-INFOP, and/or 0N-DMNIC, and link them via FileFix. Later!

|07j |15A C K |07p |15H L A S H |07!
|08[https://jackphla.sh]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

It will be no surprise to many of you to read that I've been tossing around a lot of ideas about how to overhaul or otherwise update Zer0net for a couple of years now.

Great post, jP - I read it on the www as you suggested; jam packed with great infoz. zer0net will be the go-to FTN of 2oFB - it has been moved to our #2 newscan spot - sorry, the localz are still first!!

I'm stoked to see new boards join zer0net and will do everything I can to get more traffic coming thru. zer0 was always an FTN that I wanted to have @ 2oFB... I was excited when I was finally accepted and think that allowing other, newer, sysops who actually BUILD/CREATE their BBSes beyond stock installs is a good thing.

Theres a place for super EXCLUSIVE FTNs; but they sometimes become stagnant or exclusive to the 7 people that use them. I like the changes and hope that they are good to zer0.

Lets go!



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (911:1503/0)

on 01 Jul 2024, paulie420 said...

Great post, jP - I read it on the www as you suggested; jam packed with great infoz. zer0net will be the go-to FTN of 2oFB - it has been moved
to our #2 newscan spot - sorry, the localz are still first!!

Thanks man! Yeah, I drew that ANSI on there live on the Demonic discord the other day. I want to do more of that - pretty fun, especially with some people on voice chat pitching in ideas and feedback.

And yeah, local should always be #1!

I'm stoked to see new boards join zer0net and will do everything I can
to get more traffic coming thru. zer0 was always an FTN that I wanted to have @ 2oFB... I was excited when I was finally accepted and think that allowing other, newer, sysops who actually BUILD/CREATE their BBSes
beyond stock installs is a good thing.

I'm not expecting any miracles, but if we get even a few new SysOps who like to post, and post decent stuff, then loosening the recruiting standards will be worth it IMO.

Theres a place for super EXCLUSIVE FTNs; but they sometimes become stagnant or exclusive to the 7 people that use them. I like the changes and hope that they are good to zer0.

Yeah, like I said, it is kind of self defeating at the end of the day. Originally, it was just me and brand0 and we *knew* we'd both message each other, so having a small network wasn't a big deal. As we grew, it was (again) mostly people I knew from the scene who were still pretty jazzed just to have some activity to reply to. Times have definitely changed.

|07j |15A C K |07p |15H L A S H |07!
|08[https://jackphla.sh]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

Thanks man! Yeah, I drew that ANSI on there live on the Demonic discord the other day. I want to do more of that - pretty fun, especially with some people on voice chat pitching in ideas and feedback.

Is it public??? I'd add to the zer0net conference join...



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (911:1503/0)

Made all the appropriate changes here on Clutch.

Look forward to some more active discussions.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/04/30 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Clutch BBS * telnet://clutchbbs.com (911:1519/1)

on 01 Jul 2024, paulie420 said...

Is it public??? I'd add to the zer0net conference join...

I mean, it's never "public" but I usually do it in the default/general voice channel of whatever server I'm on, so practically everyone on the server can participate. Obviously the Demonic/Zer0net server has a pretty small audience, but I did it once a long time ago on the BBS World server which is pretty large.

|07j |15A C K |07p |15H L A S H |07!
|08[https://jackphla.sh]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

on 02 Jul 2024, niter3 said...

Made all the appropriate changes here on Clutch.

Look forward to some more active discussions.

Woot! One down. Thank you, sir.

|07j |15A C K |07p |15H L A S H |07!
|08[https://jackphla.sh]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

I mean, it's never "public" but I usually do it in the default/general voice channel of whatever server I'm on, so practically everyone on the server can participate. Obviously the Demonic/Zer0net server has a
pretty small audience, but I did it once a long time ago on the BBS
World server which is pretty large.

Can you share an invite for the BBS World server?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (911:1719/0)

On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 21:55:02 -0700, you wrote:

Zer0net in 2024, which, by the way, marks the network's 25th birthday!

Happy birthday, Zeronet!

No need to say the age, though, as that just makes us reflect how old we actually are.

TL;DR version for those of you who can't stand to read my overly verbose messages: Expect to see much more Paulie420 around. We have a Discord server! Expect to see a lot more new nodes and hopefully more posts, but this should not impact existing nodes. A new infopack is out! Please remove 0N-INFO, 0N-NEWS, 0N-ANARC, 0N-HACKN, and 0N-PHRKN from your configurations and add 0N-HPCAV and 0N-RETRO (and 0N-DPUB if you haven't already done so.) Oh, and please fix that shit by August! If you'd like
to receive file hatches of network nodelists, infopacks, and/or Demonic Productions releases, please configure your system to support TIC processing, add the new file echos 0N-NODEL, 0N-INFOP, and/or 0N-DMNIC, and link them via FileFix. Later!

FFS, I wasn't expecting to have to work on my rain day! :)

Should be good to go over here. If there's any issues, I'll make sure to put it in the suggestion box (trash can), since your end is working just fine.

Regards,
Nick

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:115.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderb
* Origin: _thePharcyde distribution system (Wisconsin) (911:1262/1)

Can you share an invite for the BBS World server?

Disregard. Figured it out. :)

--(esc!dEMONIC)--

--- DayDream BBS/UNIX (Linux) 2.15a
* Origin: [>mONTEREYbBS.COM>] (911:1719/1)

Made all the appropriate changes here on Clutch.

Look forward to some more active discussions.

Same - if we post, they will come!! I'll be active and enjoying zer0 in the coming months!! w00t w00t.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (911:1503/0)

on 02 Jul 2024, Accession said...

Happy birthday, Zeronet!

No need to say the age, though, as that just makes us reflect how old we actually are.

Next year the little fucker has to get its own damn car insurance!

FFS, I wasn't expecting to have to work on my rain day! :)

This is like one of those things where instead of people getting you a birthday present, you just get to be a dick to them and make demands of them and whatnot. Hmm... my own birthday is coming up. *ponders*

Should be good to go over here. If there's any issues, I'll make sure to put it in the suggestion box (trash can), since your end is working just fine.

The only issue is that my dumbass forgot to link everyone to the two new echos. That, or it was Mystic. Yeah, I'll blame Mystic... ;)

(That's fixed now.)

|07j |15A C K |07p |15H L A S H |07!
|08[https://jackphla.sh]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

It will be no surprise to many of you to read that I've been tossing around a lot of ideas about how to overhaul or otherwise update Zer0n for a couple of years now.

Great post, jP - I read it on the www as you suggested; jam packed with great infoz. zer0net will be the go-to FTN of 2oFB - it has been moved
to our #2 newscan spot - sorry, the localz are still first!!

Yep, Nice job updating the rules and trying to revive activity.

I already benefit from having Zer0net #2 on 20-4-BEERS, I barely find time to go to FTN on Paulie's board.. such an elite board it is today.. full of local traffic. but when I clean up messaging backlog in the local board, next FTN was usually evaluated and 0-NET was down the damn bottom, Paulie.

Happy to discover more posts!

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (911:1503/0)

On Wed, 3 Jul 2024 01:56:14 -0700, you wrote:

Next year the little fucker has to get its own damn car insurance!

Don't bring that up, either. I happen to have a 16 year old right now and our insurance went up $150 a month because of it. :(

This is like one of those things where instead of people getting you a birthday present, you just get to be a dick to them and make demands of them and whatnot. Hmm... my own birthday is coming up. *ponders*

"Accession is not here right now. Please leave your message after the beep..."

The only issue is that my dumbass forgot to link everyone to the two new echos. That, or it was Mystic. Yeah, I'll blame Mystic... ;)

(That's fixed now.)

No biggie. I had to filefix the new file areas, so it was just another netmail, and then a couple more to make sure I was linked to everything.

I was kind of expecting to have to do that anyway.

Regards,
Nick

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:115.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderb
* Origin: _thePharcyde distribution system (Wisconsin) (911:1262/1)

on 03 Jul 2024, Accession said...

Don't bring that up, either. I happen to have a 16 year old right now
and our insurance went up $150 a month because of it. :(

Oof. Sorry man!!

No biggie. I had to filefix the new file areas, so it was just another netmail, and then a couple more to make sure I was linked to everything.

I was kind of expecting to have to do that anyway.

Yep, for the file echos that was entirely intentional, since I don't know how many people will care about them. A few people have given me a hard time about nodelist automation, so at least they'll be happy though. ;)

|07j |15A C K |07p |15H L A S H |07!
|08[https://jackphla.sh]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

I already benefit from having Zer0net #2 on 20-4-BEERS, I barely find
time to go to FTN on Paulie's board.. such an elite board it is today.. full of local traffic. but when I clean up messaging backlog in the
local board, next FTN was usually evaluated and 0-NET was down the damn bottom, Paulie.

:P I got it moved over - newscans will now scan 2oFB localzZz, zer0net, fsxNet, arakNet - and all the others. :P I know its hard to get to them all, but zer0 is an easy one to traverse - hopefully users will find it a little more now that its not 6th in line!!

:P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (911:1503/0)

(A lot of these details only pertain to Zer0net node SysOps, however a huge part of this announcement is extremely relevant to any perspective new nodes, and none of it is anything in any way sensitive, so I'm

Great changes jP glad to be a part of it!

All changes requested of you made here at TUG and soon to be The Ruins.

Thx,

|15-|12t|04G
|15www|08.|15theun|07dergrou|08nd|07.|08us|15:|0810023

... Computers all wait at the same speed!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/04/30 (Linux/64)
* Origin: www.theunderground.us Telnet 10023 SSH 7771 (911:1317/0)

on 05 Jul 2024, The Godfather said...

Great changes jP glad to be a part of it!

All changes requested of you made here at TUG and soon to be The Ruins.

Woot! Awesome. Also, good to see you around here again.

|07j |15A C K |07p |15H L A S H |07!
|08[https://jackphla.sh]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

comes to open conversation, and staying true to our underground BBS
scene aligned roots, and instead of changing the conversation, focus on

..

* Zer0net has been opened up, and acceptance criteria has been loosened considerably. Ultimately, most of us are members of echo mail networks

..

3. We'll be adding a new echo, 0N-RETRO related to all things retro-computing. This one might ALSO feel redundant, but while BBSing in

Excited to read about the refresh for zer0net. I admire how consistent you've been with keeping it running, 25 years is impressive

I'm not currently running a board but if I were, I'd want it to be on zer0net ;). I have gotten very involved in retro-computing as a hobby over the past few years and was wondering how folks think about retrocomputing-as-a-hobby with the elite/scene aspect of zer0net's roots

I think of the "scene" vibe from the 1990s as being a counter-culture to mainstream computing, however today in 2024, we're doing this as a retro hobby, so its difficult to separate the underground/elite/whatever scene from the rest of 1990s computing that we're re-living. obviously those who were there understand it, but explaining it to someone new....

in slightly different words, i have been somewhat impressed at the level of interest from younger folks in learning about older tech and BBSes in particular. so in that regard, how does this technology that was trying to be exclusive/non-pd also welcome those who are interested in retrocomputing and don't understand the nuance in between?

-Mark

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

Excited to read about the refresh for zer0net. I admire how consistent you've been with keeping it running, 25 years is impressive

This.

I'm not currently running a board but if I were, I'd want it to be on zer0net ;). I have gotten very involved in retro-computing as a hobby over the past few years and was wondering how folks think about retrocomputing-as-a-hobby with the elite/scene aspect of zer0net's roots

obviously those who were there understand it, but explaining it to
someone new....

... We're still here, but I can understand so some folks who did... you know, life - can feel like its different times. I still love being right here and in the mix, 30 years later and still with a thriving community around. Different, but a scene. :P

in slightly different words, i have been somewhat impressed at the level of interest from younger folks in learning about older tech and BBSes in particular. so in that regard, how does this technology that was trying to be exclusive/non-pd also welcome those who are interested in retrocomputing and don't understand the nuance in between?

Agreed - I have many users @ 2oFB that are young... and many that are old - the fact that we intermingle and create a community around it is just as wholesome as it were in 1994. Keep poking yer head in the fire - theres some flames in zer0 and other places in the scene... still.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (911:1503/0)

on 06 Jul 2024, sloop said...

I have gotten very involved in retro-computing as a hobby over the past sl> sl> few years and was wondering how folks think about
retrocomputing-as-a-hobby with the elite/scene aspect of zer0net's roots

As I mentioned in my announcement post, I do think there *is* a difference to a lot of us. I think those of us who had been doing this since the old days more or less non-stop probably don't view their scene related activity as taking part in "retrocomputing-as-a-hobby" despite it being one in the same on paper. Then again, I never stopped playing "retro" computer games either, so what's the difference?

Then, I have some other areas that are more firmly grounded in "retrocomputing" like collecting boxed software and games - this is something I've also done since the old days, but it really went into overdrive in the last 5 years. Same with building/using old PCs - I'd had an old 486 for ages now, but ended up getting 2 more older PCs and a slew of Amigas in the last 6 or 7 years, and I'd say my interest in getting into Amiga is firmly rooted in the retro scene. In fact, the modern retrocomputing scene has been a big inspiration in all of these things, and even comes back around into inspiring my interest in BBSing.

Kind of a hard line to draw... but I think there is one.

I think of the "scene" vibe from the 1990s as being a counter-culture to mainstream computing, however today in 2024, we're doing this as a retro hobby, so its difficult to separate the underground/elite/whatever scene from the rest of 1990s computing that we're re-living. obviously those who were there understand it, but explaining it to someone new....

As much of a counter-culture as it might have been, it was definitely a hobby too. While for years there, it was practically my entire life and it was the same with a lot of my friends, we all knew people who were very casual about it, no matter how "elite" they were or what they were into. While I doubt many hobbies could have been so all-consuming to me at the time, I've definitely known people who get ridiculously deep into their hobbies of choice too - people in the music scene, roleplayers and wargamers, car lovers, anime nerds, motorcycle riders, paintballers, graffiti artists. I'm sure the examples are unlimited.

in slightly different words, i have been somewhat impressed at the level of interest from younger folks in learning about older tech and BBSes in particular. so in that regard, how does this technology that was trying to be exclusive/non-pd also welcome those who are interested in retrocomputing and don't understand the nuance in between?

Just like it was when *I* started, there is an entire subculture, history, all kinds of new (heh, well, old) and different technology, practically limitless stuff a noob can get into if they really catch the bug, and that's without even mentioned all of the communities and individuals who are glad to take people under their wings. The real question is, how many young people actually give a shit about any of this stuff? Well, surprisingly, they definitely *do* exist, which is pretty damn cool.

The bigger question to me is how you can cultivate a sense of what it was to try to be "elite" and look up to those who were, and be shunned when you clearly weren't, without scaring those new people away? Long gone are the days of locking people out of systems and hazing them until they get their heads on straight, I think.

My own personal take on this is that those aspects of the underground scene are gone, relegated to anecdotes from us old-timers, hehe. The scene today is, as with the Internet as a whole, much more democratized, and when the alternative is some weird caste system, that is probably a good thing overall. :) How do you get to be "elite" in the BBS scene these days? By being cool and/or doing cool shit. Likewise, newbies can still respect cool people who have/are doing cool shit. It's more merit-based, and more subjective I suppose, but again, that's not a bad thing.

*This post sponsored by just waking up and not having any coffee yet.*

|07j |15A C K |07p |15H L A S H |07!
|08[https://jackphla.sh]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: d i s t o r t i o n // d1st.org (911:1423/0)

Woot! Awesome. Also, good to see you around here again.

Thanks jP! Glad to be back. In and out with work and weather but most always at least reading :)

|15-|12t|04G
|15www|08.|15theun|07dergrou|08nd|07.|08us|15:|0810023

... If you can't make it good, make it LOOK good. -Bill Gates.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/04/30 (Linux/64)
* Origin: www.theunderground.us Telnet 10023 SSH 7771 (911:1317/0)